Could this be the Beginning of the End?

[dragonbill]

With the NHTSA mandating "stablity control" on all cars by 2012, what will become of our sport?  If the safety nazis can make all cars kill the motor if a tire slips, it seems we will be losing a lot of stock class fun.  Comments?

BG

[AndyYankee17]

I often thought the same thing with the Toyota recalls, fly by wire throttles will be automatically killed when the brakes are pressed, nullifying any left foot braking

and not to cause a massive political debate (probably against forum rules) it is unconstitutional: Article 1 Section 8

I'd recommend calling your rep/senators, see what they can do

[Neil Schelly]

With the NHTSA mandating "stablity control" on all cars by 2012, what will become of our sport?  If the safety nazis can make all cars kill the motor if a tire slips, it seems we will be losing a lot of stock class fun.  Comments?

BG

I'm guessing/hoping that any cars with a decent chance of being fun to drive will have the option to disable it as most cars do now.  Cars like the original Lexus IS300 got laughed at for the inability to disable their stability control, so I hope most enthusiast-minded car engineers will keep that in mind.
-N

[Scott]

my 2010 toyota can spin tires with your foot on the brake, you can also disable almost all of the nannies.

on my mazdaspeed3 the tcs and dsc can be turned off for the most part

if mfgs are willing to turn in hidden switches (push and hold 5 sec type) then we might be ok

[AndyYankee17]

most tcs I've seen have a button on dash to disable it, I do it every time I get in. The systems should be on individual fuses that you can pull out, my concern is just paying for something you don't want/need. A lot of motorcycles have ABS as an option, you could save $500 by just not having it

[J_Anderson]

I think you'll find companies like Toyota, which have become more conservative in there performance products, more likely to adopt very intrusive DA's. Being that I co-drive a MKII ES MR2, this is really disappointing. I'm not sure we will ever see Toyota return to the quality line of small sports cars they produced in the 80's, 90's and up until just a few year ago. Once the Camry took over and just about every car was somehow designed off of it, they died to the performance enthusiast. You can probably throw Acura right here as well. Heavy, fat and boring cars compared to what they made in the 90's.

That said I think there is a large percentage of car makers out there who are very unlikely to follow this path. I think Mazda and BMW are probably the most likely to continue building cars that are oriented towards the driver and would be steadfast in their desire to stay this way. BMW for instance has 2 settings for most TCS system, the single press off and then the hold and really off. Companies like Subaru, Honda, Ford/Chevy, Nissan are not far off on the way they will treat these systems. If all else fails save your pennies and the likes of Lotus and Porsche will die before making lame cars.

Hopefully these systems can be easily disabled with a quick ECU flash and the SCCA will allow it in the stock classes.

[dragonbill]

In the past, stability control has been added at the decision of the manufacturer, giving them the option of turning it off if they like.  Since this is an NHTSA rule, they can mandate that it cannot be turned off, and with the current legal climate in this country, I expect that there will be no option to turn it off.  While some of these items are (just) OK, none are tuned for Solo.  I drove a Mitsubishi EVO last year that was undrivaeble in solo with the Stability control turned on.

As enthusiasts, we need to see what can be dome about this, as the NHTSA makes rules, not laws.  They do not go through Congress.

If all new cars in 2012 have this feature, our enjoyment of solo is seriously threatened.


BG

[AndyYankee17]

This might be helpful: http://www.contactingthecongress.org/

[J_Anderson]

Contacting congress is a great idea. I just wrote a letter to my congressman.

As a group we are probably the most educated group when it comes to really understanding the issues with training wheels on cars. People will begin to rely on a safety net of electronics to compensate for poor driving and poor decisions. I am sure that many of these systems do save lives, but I think it could quickly find a tipping point if the drivers actions are filtered through a computer every step of the way.

One good thing to consider are systems like the Nissan GTR is equipped with. The system is smart enough to know via GPS when you have ventured off public roads. The ECU can automatically allow the training wheels to be turned off. Of course the same system can tell the service tech, who will then undoubtedly void your warranty!!!

[AndyYankee17]

Mercedes auto-braking and lane control comes to mind...


and wtf is with cars that can self-parallel park

[Gus Heck]

Can we get a link to the announcement of this rule making or something in the press about it? I'd prefer to reference it clearly rather than saying "this guy on our forum said..." in my letter to congress. Not that I don't trust you, but I'm not sure the senator/Representative will .

[J_Anderson]

The letter I wrote did not reference any particular bill or rule. It was a general statement on the amount of digital tinkering our cars do for us and whether the problem should be transferred away from the human and to the machine even more. I asked him a few simple questions to ponder about when and how safely we can transfer the responsibility of the driver to a computer. At what point can congress mandate technology that our own oversight boards (NTSB) cannot analyze? I let you know if he gets back.

FYI, great article on Toyota's problems today on the NYtimes website.

[l4m3r]

Some quick googling shows the rule as:

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
          49 CFR Parts 571 and 585
      [Docket No. NHTSA–2007­27662]
              RIN: 2127­AJ77

The forum won't let me post links, but the first hit on google for "nhtsa stability control" is the summary page, the actual text of the rule is linked as a pdf from there.

Sigh, I guess it's time to write my rep/senators...

-- Sam (43 SM)

[jmartynuska]

[tongue in cheek]

Bill, you should view this as an opportunity. We could all drive Dragons.

 

[/tongue in cheek]

IIRC, when NASCAR lost two or three drivers due to stuck throttles, Jack Roush started work on a system to disable the engine/ignition when brake line pressure exceeded a certain level, allowing some LFB.

Toyota didn't get drive by wire right; I'd not want to be the first to experience stability control system failure. I'd rather see some sort of InControl training mandated.

Jeff (still uses a timing light) M.

[AndyYankee17]

don't a lot of nascar teams use a type of throttle (forget the name) that has like a lever welded to it 90 degrees up so the driver could kick his foot up to try to unstick it?


and I don't get these accidents with Toyotas with the throttle sticking, can't you turn the ignition off? or put it into neutral? my guess is that it's the mentality of "right pedal go fast, left pedal go slow" and not much more understanding of a car's systems than that