Could this be the Beginning of the End?

[Neil Schelly]

Push-button starts require you to press and hold the button to force the car to turn off.  Most people don't know that, so if they press the button and the car doesn't turn off, they are out of ideas.  Lots of people start pumping their brakes, using up all their power brake vacuum, and then they complain that their brakes stop working too.  Or they use the brakes too gingerly, trying to bring speeds under control, so eventually, they burn out their brakes instead of just plain stopping.  I will say that my wife's Camry Hybrid has no trouble changing into neutral when asked.  I don't know what would happen if you did that for an extended period with a stuck accelerator, but I imagine the engine's fuel cut would keep it safe, at least for a relatively short period of time necessary to stop.

Informing people about how to drive is just too costly apparently to bother with it.
-N

[AndyYankee17]

yeah those push buttons are weird, so you're going to put your keys in the ignition then move your hand to start the car or something? and I think if my throttle stuck I'd rather blow up the engine and have Toyota replace the engine along with the throttle

[Gus Heck]

don't a lot of nascar teams use a type of throttle (forget the name) that has like a lever welded to it 90 degrees up so the driver could kick his foot up to try to unstick it?


and I don't get these accidents with Toyotas with the throttle sticking, can't you turn the ignition off? or put it into neutral? my guess is that it's the mentality of "right pedal go fast, left pedal go slow" and not much more understanding of a car's systems than that

Issues include, naive drivers as you say above, and also reaction time. It's a very unexpected event when the car starts doing something apparently by itself. If you are on a highway with no traffic you have time to realize the problem and shift to neutral. If it happens in the city, you may very well be kissing light poles and pedestrians before you realize what the problem is.

My vote is for manual transmissions. Drive a stick and "shift to neutral" is an action you do ALL the time and a regular, natural part of braking for non-performance driving anyway.

Which by the way, totally begs the question of will the rule apply to manual transmissions? (have yet to check it out)

[Gus Heck]

didn't find any dicussion of manual transmissions yet, but I did find this which provides some hope:

In certain circumstances, drivers may have legitimate reasons to disengage the
ESC system or limit its ability to intervene, such as when the vehicle is stuck in
sand/gravel or when the vehicle is being run on a track for maximum performance.
Accordingly, under this proposal, vehicle manufacturers would be permitted to include a
driverselectable
switch that places the ESC system in a mode in which it would not
satisfy the performance requirements of the standard (e.g., “sport” mode or fulloff
mode). However, if the vehicle manufacturer chooses this option, it would be required to
ensure that the ESC system always returns to a mode that satisfies the requirements of the
standard at the initiation of each new ignition cycle, regardless of the mode the driver had
previously selected. Furthermore, the manufacturer would be required to provide an
“ESC Off” switch and a telltale that are mounted inside the occupant compartment in
front of and in clear view of the driver and which are identified by the symbol or text
shown for “ESC Off” in Table 1 of FMVSS No. 101. Such telltale would be required to
remain continuously illuminated for as long as the ESC is in a mode that renders it unable
to meet the performance requirements of the standard, whenever the ignition locking
system is in the “On” (“Run”) position.

The down side is if you stall your car on course you have to remember to turn off ESC again... and at the start of every run. IF the manufacturer includes the option.

The document can be found here:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated%20Files/ESC_FR_03_2007.pdf

[AndyYankee17]

I still think you may as well pull a fuse, TSC is the same, when it's off it lights up on the dash

[Neil Schelly]

yeah those push buttons are weird, so you're going to put your keys in the ignition then move your hand to start the car or something? and I think if my throttle stuck I'd rather blow up the engine and have Toyota replace the engine along with the throttle

The good push-button systems don't make you put a key anywhere.  It's really convenient just to have the key in your pocket and have that be enough to start the car.
-N

[ChrisFranson]

yeah those push buttons are weird, so you're going to put your keys in the ignition then move your hand to start the car or something?

That's exactly how Honda's been doing it in the S2000 all along.

[davidh729]

The down side is if you stall your car on course you have to remember to turn off ESC again... and at the start of every run. IF the manufacturer includes the option.

Gus, every traction control system I've encountered works this way already. I don't know how many runs I took in the GTI wondering why it was appearing to oversteer and then realized I left the traction control on after restarting the car.

I still think you may as well pull a fuse, TSC is the same, when it's off it lights up on the dash

Andy, There is a very slim chance that the traction/stability control system in a newer car will have a separate fuse. The System is typically controlled by the ECU and also involves the ABS module. The way car manufacturers are going they're also moving toward doing more centralized computing to keep the number of individual processors down so in the future there will be even less items on individual fuses.

Dave 

[Gus Heck]

yeah those push buttons are weird, so you're going to put your keys in the ignition then move your hand to start the car or something? and I think if my throttle stuck I'd rather blow up the engine and have Toyota replace the engine along with the throttle

It's how the Lotus works too. But there's also complication of a process with an alarm system ingnition kill that has to be disabled too. The joke about the elise, is that when you add the key/button combo to the slightly less than intuitive alarm system, and the antiquated door opening mechanism. *most* folks couldn't steal an elise in under 5 minutes if you handed them the keys

of course it makes starting the car a pita... but once the car is started I quickly forget everything else anyway I do find the picture of a would be thief trying to figure out how to open the door and getting flustered amusing...

[Michaelrf]

Gus, every traction control system I've encountered works this way already. I don't know how many runs I took in the GTI wondering why it was appearing to oversteer and then realized I left the traction control on after restarting the car.
Andy, There is a very slim chance that the traction/stability control system in a newer car will have a separate fuse. The System is typically controlled by the ECU and also involves the ABS module. The way car manufacturers are going they're also moving toward doing more centralized computing to keep the number of individual processors down so in the future there will be even less items on individual fuses.

Dave 

  SCCA could add a "ESC OFF" sticker for sale that you can put on your steering wheel

[steve108]

I would like to share a true story that relates to this topic.

I used to work for a car dealership in the service department. We had a vehicle come in (towed) with the customer complaining that it would suddenly, violently, and without warning swerve to one side. She said she had driven the car to the store and all was fine, when she went to leave she said that she had almost crashed the car in the parking lot because of this problem.

Eventually the problem was determined to be a failed steering angle sensor (determines where the steering wheel is pointed). It was sending the stability control random angles between locks even when the wheel was straight and stationary. We, along with the manufacturers representative, speculate that the sensor was damaged by a static discharge through the steering column. The computer did not detect any error and responded as it was designed to.

The computer would interpret this as the car being in a skid; cut power and apply braking to attempt to correct for a condition that did not exist. This braking was strong enough to make the vehicle undriveable at speeds above a slow walking pace.

The problem has been documented by other dealerships on other vehicles of the same make/model.

I very strongly believe that any system like this (ABS, TC, SC) needs to have an off switch, easily reached by the driver, and one that remains in the position it is placed until the driver choses otherwise. THAT would be a law that makes sense.

[AndyYankee17]

a bunch of toggle switches on the dash

[ACM]

All the more reason I need to keep our non-TC, non-ESC, non-ABS passive AWD Talons running.

"It's a rally car, it's supposed to be sideways !"

[J_Anderson]

Response from my congressman. Now I can sleep at night!

Dear Mr. Anderson:
 
Thank you for your correspondence regarding your concerns about auto safety. I appreciate the opportunity to respond.
 
Like you, I am greatly concerned about the safety of all vehicles on our roadways. As a member of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, I participated in the Committee's recent hearing regarding the problems with certain Toyota vehicles. In addition,   you may be interested to know that I recently voted in favor of the Jobs for Main Street Act, H.R. 2847, which, among other things, extends the authorization for the highway, transit, highway safety and motor carrier safety programs of the Department of Transportation until September 30, 2010. 
 
I appreciate your offer of assistance. Please be assured that I and my staff will continue to monitor both the Toyota situation and measures Congress is expected to consider to address the safety of the travelling public.
 
Thank you for contacting me. Please feel free to do so regarding any matter of concern to you. 

[Gus Heck]

I'll bet it comes with a genuine blue ink printed facsimile of his signature too!