New Stock Street Tire class: Are we going to implement that in NER?

[ChrisFranson]

1. They were the largest classes by far at every event.

Was Milwaukee Region also running a "Pro" style class as well as a novice class?

[newportroyal]

Telling people that they can no longer run in their stock open class just seems like sacrilege to me.  I could see some of the members that have been at NER for a very long time being very upset with this.  

I was under the impression that it was a rule that all SCCA regions would offer all the national classses, plus any supplemental classes they want to add for their region.  If that's the case, we cannot take away the stock classes, right?

Also, as far as the two current indexed classes, NER has already cut down the amount of time Novice's are allowed to participate in the Novice class, they can't run a whole season, and can't win a Novice championship (I presume, I am not 100% familiar with the new rules).  So why couldn't we change the way we handle Novices?  Have them run in their open classes, but give them a Novice designation, and in addition to their position in their open class, we PAX them together at the end of the day and give out Novice trophies.

I'm just brainstorming here, I don't think that's necessarily a good idea, and we definitely don't want to do anything to discourage novice participation.

I'd be fine with allowing stock, *sp, p, sm, m, street tire cars to run in Pro if they were given an additional PAX multiplier.

[pzahornasky]

Telling people that they can no longer run in their stock open class just seems like sacrilege to me.  I could see some of the members that have been at NER for a very long time being very upset with this.  

I was under the impression that it was a rule that all SCCA regions would offer all the national classses, plus any supplemental classes they want to add for their region.  If that's the case, we cannot take away the stock classes, right?

Incorrect - The only mandatory sections of the rulebook FOR REGIONAL EVENTS are those that cover safety, sanctioning and other type stuff.

When it comes to classing, regions have full flexibility to run whatever classing structure fits their needs.  We are not required to run the SCCA National classing  or classing rules at local events.  If we want to restrict Stock Class to tires that meet the Street Touring tire rules, we can do that.

[madame_toussleau]

Was Milwaukee Region also running a "Pro" style class as well as a novice class?

I count 5 indexed classes at  their events -->  3 Street tire classes, 1 pro class, and one for all the 1 driver classes combined. No novice class.

Here's one typical event of theirs - http://www.scca-milwaukee.org/solo/2009/E1/event1_fin.htm


-barb 88 corvette - BStock

[DaveT]

Why not just update our timing software so that running index classes isn't such a big deal?

[pzahornasky]

I count 5 indexed classes at  their events -->  3 Street tire classes, 1 pro class, and one for all the 1 driver classes combined. No novice class.

Here's one typical event of theirs - http://www.scca-milwaukee.org/solo/2009/E1/event1_fin.htm


-barb 88 corvette - BStock

So you run in Pro, One of Three Street tire classes, and either your class (if it makes a class) or Open Combined.

Not how I want our results to look.

[dankimber]

Have sit in way too many BOD meetings...know better then to go there again.

[Gus Heck]

I'm not against a Road Tire Class, I am against adding yet a third index class.

So instead of doing that, and ending up with a bunch of stock classes with one or two cars, how about this:

Anyone running an R-compound tire in Stock has to go to Pro.

Because it sounds like there are only a few people left in stock on R comps anyway. 

And yes, this is serious. 

Solves the request for a Street Tire class

Solves the issue of having three index classes.

Hey, I like this idea. It makes sense. "stock" becomes more like it's name implies, and the serious folk get serious competition. It also avoids having SERIOUS folk who have maxed their modifications in prepared or street modified from slapping on street tires and becoming shoe-ins for trophies in the larger street tire class, populated by a greater proportion of folks with limited budget, limited time and limited commitment.

The new attendee feels a little less like they are never able to compete & folks who want to ditch their Hoosiers have a place to play unless they are running in prepared/modified classes, and 90% of those folks wouldn't let you pry the Hoosiers out of their talon like grip anyway...

Edit: Hmm, one thought though.... sort of messes with the moss trophy doesn't it?

Edit 2: Perhaps we simplify the moss as well by simply stating that after the top N folks in pro are selected, there can be only one entry from each class thereafter. Folks running in Pro get precedence. (*most* of the time that will be correct anyway). Also qualification for "instructor" needs to change slightly, but given the fact that I think that there is a fair chance I could have become a class champion simply by slapping XP on my vehicle last year, I'm not so sure our current "class champion" rule is all that great to begin with... Even if you give me an SS pax I only come in at about 75% of drivers on a good day.

[pzahornasky]

... It also avoids having SERIOUS folk who have maxed their modifications in prepared or street modified from slapping on street tires and becoming shoe-ins for trophies in the larger street tire class,

Gus, to be clear - this whole thread is only about Stock.  SP and SM are not invited to the street tire classes (if they come about)

Edit: Hmm, one thought though.... sort of messes with the moss trophy doesn't it?

That would have to be figured out.  I am sure that there is a modifier that Rick Ruth could provide for Stock Street tired vehicles.  I've seen .95 being used as a multiplier elsewhere.

[Forcednduckshn]

I don't agree. There is overwhelming support for it on the forums, but I haven't seen anybody show up at a big event on street tires. They just don't show up.

The only reason the tires you run would matter is if you wanted equal footing with your competition. If you're running alone in your class it doesn't matter. You still finish "first". If that is _all_ someone wants to do, there are many classes that don't have anyone running in them in the region. Adding more classes means there are more classes without any drivers or without any competition. That was the argument against Pro class. Personally, I wouldn't mind fewer classes that are all consolidated, so maybe a street tire indexed class would be good. We could run 2 run groups, Pro and RT. The Moss competition would be a single elimination bracket between the first ten drivers in both classes.

How could anyone show up to a big/national event on street tires?  They haven't offered a street tire stock class nationally yet...

I love your idea of a street tire pax class, everyone does it, it's great competition, super fun.  Our little local rink-a-dink sandbox club in Stratford, CT , FCSCC runs it and there are great battles.

If given the opportunity, and SCCA stock classes were made to be 140 treadwear street tires, I would love it, and it would only encourage tighter competition at Devens.  Instead of weaker drivers getting creamed by 7 or 8 seconds because someone is on HoHo's and they're on all seasons, it will only be 4 or 5 seconds    My decision for which class I run nationally would be where the competition is.  If the top BS drivers went to street tire stock, I would follow suit happilly!  If they stayed in HoHo stock class, I would stay there.  It's about the battle amongst formidable competition, not pwning n00bs (that's what OnTrackKarting is for.)

Seriously though, it's an unfortunate battle of the have's vs. have not's.   Those with experience, time and money have advantages.  Running street tires mitigates the advantages, allowing for driving talent to shine through more, promotes closer competition to a degree, and I think that is something EVERYONE can feel good about.  Call me crazy.

Looking forward to what should be an epic pro class season.  And I have a fast car with a good pax now! ....

[NERDY]

How could anyone show up to a big/national event on street tires?  They haven't offered a street tire stock class nationally yet...

I love your idea of a street tire pax class, everyone does it, it's great competition, super fun.  Our little local rink-a-dink sandbox club in Stratford, CT , FCSCC runs it and there are great battles.

If given the opportunity, and SCCA stock classes were made to be 140 treadwear street tires, I would love it, and it would only encourage tighter competition at Devens.  Instead of weaker drivers getting creamed by 7 or 8 seconds because someone is on HoHo's and they're on all seasons, it will only be 4 or 5 seconds    My decision for which class I run nationally would be where the competition is.  If the top BS drivers went to street tire stock, I would follow suit happilly!  If they stayed in HoHo stock class, I would stay there.  It's about the battle amongst formidable competition, not pwning n00bs (that's what OnTrackKarting is for.)

Seriously though, it's an unfortunate battle of the have's vs. have not's.   Those with experience, time and money have advantages.  Running street tires mitigates the advantages, allowing for driving talent to shine through more, promotes closer competition to a degree, and I think that is something EVERYONE can feel good about.  Call me crazy.

Looking forward to what should be an epic pro class season.  And I have a fast car with a good pax now! ....

FWIW:  Regions have had the option in the past of adding supplemental street tire classes at Tours.  I believe several events took advantage of that allowance, although none locally.

-Bryan

[crxmike]

As a street tire guy, I love the Stock Street tire indexed class.

But to be devil's advocate, will the faster Stock class drivers be very happy when the index is won by whichever car can fit the 195 Toyo?  HS/GS Civics, ES/CS Miatas come to mind as cars that will fit the "wonder" tire.  Food for thought.

[madame_toussleau]

Paul's idea works for registration   but if the stock class Rcomp people all move to Pro, then Pro grows to ~20 drivers,  and I'd want to ask that the rule to enter the Moss be changed from top 10 PAX to top 15 or 20 PAX so all the stock class people who normally would have participated  are not all left out.

Will this subject be discussed at this months meeting?


edit: I guess pushing those most prepped for the stock class into Pro sort of takes away their ability to win a regional class championship too. Another thing to consider.

-barb

[newportroyal]

As a street tire guy, I love the Stock Street tire indexed class.

But to be devil's advocate, will the faster Stock class drivers be very happy when the index is won by whichever car can fit the 195 Toyo?  HS/GS Civics, ES/CS Miatas come to mind as cars that will fit the "wonder" tire.  Food for thought.

But that's the way that it is in any class, there are almost always just a few make/model cars on a particular setup that will dominate the class.  I like my chances better running against a Civic on 195 R1R's than against an ITR on 275 Hoosiers.

[Chang]

Nationals is doing an RTF, RTR and an RTA, Front wheel drive, Rear wheel drive, All wheel drive index classes for Stock class cars run on Road Tires.  Just say'n.  I am inclined to compete in RTF to save on tire costs, but I dont know what to do with all the Hoosiers I already bought...