New Stock Street Tire class: Are we going to implement that in NER?

[pj]

I wasn't referring solely to the forum, and I'm still curious as to how many classes in NER are "ruined" by 40 tread-wear street tires.

[DaveT]

The thing is, I know that street tires are whole new "can of worms".  I know that there will be inherent advantages for certain cars and certain tires.  I know that a well-funded RT* car will need two to three sets of tires, and a top national RT* competitor will test 5+ brands in different weather conditions, and even play with different tires front to rear.  I know that it is probably simpler to just run Hoosiers.

However, I also know that people who are new to the sport are turned off by Hoosiers.  And perception is reality.  And today's "casual" competitor is tomorrow's active volunteer.

[lukin]

I would definitely run in some form of street tire stock class, be it indexed or not.

If you build it, they will come.

On a slight tangent....

I'm relatively new to the sport, but it has always seemed odd to me that stock class allowed R-comp tires.  Of all the things one might allow in a "Stock" class, the entry-point to the sport, such a drastic mod just seems a little out of place.  But maybe that's just me.

[pj]

I'm relatively new to the sport, but it has always seemed odd to me that stock class allowed R-comp tires.  Of all the things one might allow in a "Stock" class, the entry-point to the sport, such a drastic mod just seems a little out of place.  But maybe that's just me.

The kicker is that the A6 developed from the tire war that ensued from the race to build the best DOT legal tire.  If there becomes a reason, we'll see the same race to build the same tire with a 140 treadwear rating.  Ever notice that the A6 and R6 are both 40 treadwear?  Seems like the R6 could use a higher treadwear rating.  I'd say it's more out of place that you can get a certain "street tire" in a "special" compound if you have the right size and build date.

However, I also know that people who are new to the sport are turned off by Hoosiers.  And perception is reality.  And today's "casual" competitor is tomorrow's active volunteer.

How many people that are new to the sport are driving thousands of miles to attend National events?  Also, how many are still competing against people on fresh A6's, now that Pro class is around?

I wonder... would the sentiment be the same if it was known that a past regional champion stock class car would be bringing up Hankooks, Dunlops, and Continentals, fully prepped on DA shocks and a blade-ended swaybar, with a Pro-class level driver?

[Forcednduckshn]

Not everyone who autocrosses is active on this forum.  I would not take the comments of perhaps a dozen people to represent the collective feelings of the two hundred or so people we see at events.  The people who religiously follow online autocross forums in the middle of the winter are not necessarily representative of the general population.  Look at the other clubs who run in our region and see how well subscribed their street tire classes are for "proof" that there is a local demand.

Well said -

[Jenna]

Not everyone who autocrosses is active on this forum.  I would not take the comments of perhaps a dozen people to represent the collective feelings of the two hundred or so people we see at events. 

The "dozen people" active on these forums are the ones that put in all the work, and donate time, money, and general sanity. If the general population of 200 or so chooses not to voice opinions and attend meetings to help steer the club (something that's always been offered), what else can we go with?

[Gus Heck]

Ya know... index classes are just a filtered "view" of the basic raw/pax timing data. Does our program export the data in CSV format? It seems that the other way around all of this is to have people run with their class, and simply feed the base data into a program that re-sorts everyone by pax, and then filters by tags such as pro, novice, street-stock, whatever. One could simultaneously compete in Street Stock, GS, and Novice if one wanted to...

The only question is whether or not we can do that export routinely from the announcer client so timing doesn't have to care. So...

If you can get CSV out of the announcer client, (or some other text file with a consistent format), and java installed on the announcer client computer, I can probably write a program that would allow us to view the data in any number of index groupings. There's probably also an initial step of labeling the drivers with the categories... That solves the timing nightmares of large index classes... (we might still choose to run pro together for competitive reasons).

[pzahornasky]

Here's the thing -

Pro Class exists because people took the time to formulate a plan and present it at a meeting.  It was well thought out and overcame objections ahead of time.

All the postulating and arguments on the forums mean nothing.

Next meeting is Tomorrow night at 7:30 at the Hampton Inn in Auburn.  You have 33 hours - Go.

[Jenna]

It seems that the other way around all of this is to have people run with their class...

That defeats the purpose of HAVING a class, and competing against it. There is a reason Pro runs together - there is a season on the line. Novice isn't to be fast or win a season, it's to get a feel for events, so it doesn't necessarily matter if they run together or with the open class.

 

[jmartynuska]

Significant difference between Pro class and RT* -  RT* is offered by National Office and available at Tours. The "street tire in stock" movement has gathered enough momentum that National is willing to give it a supplemental try-out.

I've said before "from my cold, dead hand" concerning my Ho-Ho's. Do I feel we'll see a tire war again and be back on an A6 equivalent in a decades time or so? Yes. Are decent RTR tires available for my car? No. Do I think RT* will take off like ST* has? I'm not sure. My personal feeling is ST* has enough allowable mods plus "street" tires to make the classes attractive. However, if the direction we as a (National) club takes leads to 140 tread wear stock classes in the near future, I'll be willing to put my money where my keyboard is now.

I feel as a Jumbo region, we should be leading the charge to get behind RT* and offer it regionally.

[Gus Heck]

That defeats the purpose of HAVING a class, and competing against it. There is a reason Pro runs together - there is a season on the line. Novice isn't to be fast or win a season, it's to get a feel for events, so it doesn't necessarily matter if they run together or with the open class.

You will notice that I acknowledge in my post, the special case of pro class and the importance of having them run together, because of the special mission for that class. However in the interim I have noticed that there is a serious issue with what I proposed. I'm sure that it's a very bad idea to have folks competing for anything that seems serious to them, and involves judging cones in/out of boxes for their competitors. It would be a disaster to have someone claim a cone was/was not called due to the fact that the person calling it was a competitor.

For that reason, anything beyond novice must all run together, I agree and I will not be writing any such program.

[Forcednduckshn]

Here's the thing -

Pro Class exists because people took the time to formulate a plan and present it at a meeting.  It was well thought out and overcame objections ahead of time.

All the postulating and arguments on the forums mean nothing.

Next meeting is Tomorrow night at 7:30 at the Hampton Inn in Auburn.  You have 33 hours - Go.

RT is a class supported by the SCCA.  All of the reasons have already been discussed as to why it's a good thing, if for no other place, than at the regional level.  RT is very simple, it's a pax class using stock class PAX indexes with an additional street tire multiplier.  We have already overcome fears through discussion in this thread about how it might affect heats, work assignments and any additional burden on timing and scoring.  Were not talking about whether or not it should be implemented nationally, were talking about whether it should be implemented at NER.

I do not even have a dog in this fight per se, like other people in this thread, because I am not going to run the class this year.  But I do remember life in 2008 when I began autocross, and I speak on behalf of the people who were in my situation, who aren't on these forums, the entry level and experienced autocrossers alike because I believe it is the right thing to do, is good for our sport to have such a class (just like the SCCA and a million other regions do.)   It is not right or fair for you or anyone else in our club to say that this discussion we are having online means nothing.  Clearly the solo chair thinks it means something.  Not everyone can make the meetings.  I can't drive 2 hours to be there tonight, sorry.  This discussion and the very key points, with concerns clearly addressed in the thread should be brought to bear.  I hope you understand I am speaking plainly here and with respect. I feel obligated to do so.

I have said enough on this thread, as questions getting posed to me and others are beginning to get repetitive.  The pro's and con's have been discussed.  We'll see what happens at the meeting, and I hope the right decision is made.

[pzahornasky]

Nick,

There has been plenty of talk about the general thought of a Road Tire class, but not a lot of specifics.  I've been attending club meetings for almost 20 years and I can tell you pretty much that, unless a specific plan is put out there, the concept will be debated to death and nothing will happen.  Because that's what happens when you don't have a plan.

I proposed above that we just boot everyone in Stock classes that run on R-Comps up to Pro and make the rule in Stock classes the 140 treadwear rule.  I have a dog in that fight - I run Hoosiers and, since I still have 8 (old) R6's in my garage, would go to Pro to be trophy fodder.


Here is an alternate proposal:

1.  We offer three index classes - Road Tire Front (RTF), Rear (RTR), and All Wheel (RTA?)
2.  Classes will be supplemental and thus, not eligible for a year end trophy (and spot in the Moss)
3.  If the combined attendance in road tire classes averages 10% or more of total event attendance by halfway through the season, then they get elevated to full class status.  Less than 5% and risk having the classes abolished.


Offering the three classes solves the issue of workers.  It would not be one big index class that has to be broken up. 

Making the classes supplemental makes people put their money where there mouth is.  Either show up and support the class or risk having the class disappear.



BTW, the proposal doesn't mean I support a road tire class.  But I don't want to spend all of tomorrow night re-hashing this forum.

[Forcednduckshn]

Nick,

There has been plenty of talk about the general thought of a Road Tire class, but not a lot of specifics.  I've been attending club meetings for almost 20 years and I can tell you pretty much that, unless a specific plan is put out there, the concept will be debated to death and nothing will happen.  Because that's what happens when you don't have a plan.

I proposed above that we just boot everyone in Stock classes that run on R-Comps up to Pro and make the rule in Stock classes the 140 treadwear rule.  I have a dog in that fight - I run Hoosiers and, since I still have 8 (old) R6's in my garage, would go to Pro to be trophy fodder.


Here is an alternate proposal:

1.  We offer three index classes - Road Tire Front (RTF), Rear (RTR), and All Wheel (RTA?)
2.  Classes will be supplemental and thus, not eligible for a year end trophy (and spot in the Moss)
3.  If the combined attendance in road tire classes averages 10% or more of total event attendance by halfway through the season, then they get elevated to full class status.  Less than 5% and risk having the classes abolished.


Offering the three classes solves the issue of workers.  It would not be one big index class that has to be broken up. 

Making the classes supplemental makes people put their money where there mouth is.  Either show up and support the class or risk having the class disappear.

BTW, the proposal doesn't mean I support a road tire class.  But I don't want to spend all of tomorrow night re-hashing this forum.

Understood.  That alternate proposal sounds perfectly fair to me.  Thanks for putting that together Paul.

Nick

[pj]

RT is very simple, it's a pax class using stock class PAX indexes with an additional street tire multiplier. 

I haven't seen anything about an additional street tire multiplier.  I know some other clubs use their best guess at one, but we all know that one can't be fairly applied across all stock classes.  It's bad enough that the existing PAX factors aren't going to apply fairly to cars shod with 140+ treadwear tires. 

For those planning on attending the meeting tomorrow in favor of RT*, I'll offer the following advice:
1.   Plan out how you’d like to implement RT*.  Will it be all RT classes combined, or will it be split like the national supplemental classes (RTF, RTR, and RTA)?  What numbers can be used to support this?  Are you willing to bribe me enough to generate these numbers for you?  Answering these questions ahead of time can help prevent extending the meeting an extra hour.
2.   Figure out ahead of time how RT* may dilute open classes.  If it comes down to a need to dissolve the “other” index class, you will have won yourself a few dozen enemies, and the meeting will be extended two hours.
3.   Avoid any talk of how RT* would affect Moss competition.  Absorb your burden of hard PAX until Rick Ruth or someone else designs a sliding PAX scale based on car size and weight.  Otherwise, the meeting will be extended three hours, and you will be spending the night.