Looking for excuse to get back in...

[MrAWD]

Last year I made it to one SCCA event on my street tires with a hope to see how my new car goes between the cones. But, street tires, regardless of how grippy they are, don't offer anything that comes even close to the feel you get with R-compound tires. So, I managed to get a set of wheels last year and since I am not convinced yet that car can do it, I was hoping to get a set of used 285/35-18s that could make an event or three, so I could convince my self that this might be worth my time and money!

So, if you or know someone you know that has a set of four (either Hoosier or Kumho would do) are willing to part with it for reasonable exchange, let me know!

Thanks!


Fedja

[J_Anderson]

Fedja

As a number of SCCA and AutoX folks can tell you, old R-Comps are not as good as new super street tires. I'm not sure what kind of car your drive, or how much seat time you have... If you are new to the sport you will "learn" a lot more about driving on a good set of street tires than you will with R-Comps. If you have been doing this for awhile and want to make the jump to R-Comps, don't expect old, heat cycled Hoosier or Kuhmo's to produce any real magic. They won't squel a whole lot, but they also won't be producing optimal grip.

My co-driver and I ran all of last year on what most would call R-Comps with lots of tread. Well all that tread, plus 150 runs and a number of event heat cycles = not a whole lot of grip even though the tires looked "fine". We did this because we are cheap and were having fun, though it was frustrating.

If you are dead set on some r-comps, i'd look for Kuhmo's over Hoosiers on the old front. They tend to produce more grip as they age then Hoosiers. Depending on who you talk too Hoosiers are past there prime after 20-30 runs or less, others will say longer, but I think its affirmative across the board by 60'ish its time for new ones. Kuhmo's work well long past then as the fall off in grip is more subtle, but still present.

Jeff

[MrAWD]

Thanks for the reply Jeff!

I have tried my car (btw, 2010 EVO SE) on decent street tires and there was nothing to be used from those runs that would tell me if the car is worth running against big guys or not.

Search is still on!

Fedja

[newportroyal]

If car is still stock legal, you can run in the new 'Road Tire' classes that are being offered for stock cars with tires that have a minimum 140 UTQG treadwear rating for.  That's another option if you want to get back out there without a giant tire budget.

[J_Anderson]

Fedja

It has a lot more to do with you as the driver vs. any car. Yes there are the correct cars to have... etc, but until your able to drive them at the limit 99 percent of the time, your more the limit than any tire. Just remember your money is better spent getting seat time than fancy tires, suspension etc... Come race, learn and get a feel for the car and then think about race rubber. Like the previous post says, the RT class is designed for people with stock cars on a tight tire budget.

Jeff

[Justin Lau]

Thanks for the reply Jeff!

I have tried my car (btw, 2010 EVO SE) on decent street tires and there was nothing to be used from those runs that would tell me if the car is worth running against big guys or not.

Search is still on!

Fedja

Sure there is! On your street tires, how far back were you from the "big guys"? Over 2 seconds, it's probably not the tires or the car. Under 1 second? Tires may help.

[MrAWD]

If car is still stock legal, you can run in the new 'Road Tire' classes that are being offered for stock cars with tires that have a minimum 140 UTQG treadwear rating for.  That's another option if you want to get back out there without a giant tire budget.

I am not trying to tune the car for the street tires or run them - they squeak way to much for my old ears. BS is where I would like to see what car can do...

Fedja

[Gus Heck]

Thanks for the reply Jeff!

I have tried my car (btw, 2010 EVO SE) on decent street tires and there was nothing to be used from those runs that would tell me if the car is worth running against big guys or not.

Search is still on!

Fedja

One cannot ignore the cool factor of having R-comps, and yes there is more grip, but R comp tires are (as justin says) worth only 1-2 seconds at most. I run my R-comps a lot longer than most because A) my car is light and I have trouble heating up the tires except in the dead of summer, so they don't heat cycle quite as much and B) I'm not yet good enough to justify replacing them at the first moment they become less competitive. Note that this will be my 4th year, and I've done about 40 races (SCCA and non SCCA).

When you drive on tires with somewhat less grip, the tires don't cover up your mistakes and you actually learn to be smoother and more precise, so new R comps are for winning, and old R comps and street tires are good for learning. I ran my last set up to 160 runs. Possibly my street tires were better at that point (except probably not, since they are 20mm skinnier).

So if you want to run R-comps go ahead, it's all about fun and if that improves the fun for you then you should do it. You go slightly faster in the short term, and learn somewhat slower, thereby going slower in the long term.

For the record I did it "wrong" myself and had lots of fun doing it

[MrAWD]

Sure there is! On your street tires, how far back were you from the "big guys"? Over 2 seconds, it's probably not the tires or the car. Under 1 second? Tires may help.

I am wondering how can you claim such numbers out of blue?? 1 or 2 seconds? On a Pro Solo typical course of under 30 sec that is lot of time. For typical Solo 2 runs which go for around a minute 1 or 2 seconds is way within the reach of difference between the 140 street tire and good R tire. A while back testing reveled that R tire would give you between 4% and 8% depending on the car! That goes to be 2.4 sec to 4.8 sec. Your less then 1 sec measure makes no sense here at all!

Fedja

[J_Anderson]

If you are looking to be competitive in BS specifically it will be a serious up-hill battle against the S2000 CR or any S2000 for that.

If your looking to have fun and you think R-Comps are the answer. Buy some. Think of it as a way to have more fun, but don't think it is a competitive advantage.

The 1-2 second thing is a very common, 50-60 second, course number. Its greatly effected by surface type, temperature, presence of moisture, etc... You'll hear many very experienced autox'ers like Justin call that out. Its not something we can scientifically tell you, but the point is until your close on street tires, r-comps get you nothing.

Jeff

[Justin Lau]

I think you're just validating my statement. You said there was no good data point because you ran street tires, and I said you could gather data by looking at your times relative to the "big guys".    You don't have to use my numbers as gospel if you don't want to, but they aren't THAT arbitrary. My original point still stands.


EDIT - This was in response to Fedja's post, not Jeff's right above mine.

[MrAWD]

OK guys! It was entertaining for a while and lots of good suggestions came from all of you and I appreciate it greatly! The only thing is that I was not looking for any of those! For some reason you assumed that I am one of the new guys with few posts and needed to be be brought back to reality! Well, I do have a very few posts in here...

Now, again, if you know of someone who might part with the set of 285s that could last event or two, let me know!

Fedja

[pzahornasky]

Before this goes too far...

Fedja neglected to mention that, while it's been a few years since we've seen him - he's a Pro type driver that could easily challenge for top Pax once the rust is off.

So he understands the basic principals of seat time and such.   I think he is just looking to get some tires on the car, then gauge how competitive the car would be based on his knocking the rust off and having old tires.

And Fedja - the super street tires these days are much closer to R-comps than in the past.

[MrAWD]

Thanks for the help PZ!! I was wondering were the old farts were!!

[Forcednduckshn]

Fedja, it's important to clarify that these guys are making a comparision of Hoosiers to the top end street tires (Direzza star spec, Hankook RS-3, etc.)  These are monster tires. Personally, I would put them a bit more than 2 seconds depending on the course (not discrediting John and Justin's claims).  I was about 2.5 - 3 seconds slower on 245 Hoosier A6's vs 225 Star Specs on a 50 something second course in my BS AP1 s2000.  245 Start specs, and the time difference would have dropped by at least half a second.  Now if you are running non-top-of-the-line street tires, it's a different story. You could easily be talking about 5 seconds or more.  As a comparison/example, even in cooler ambient conditions that favor street tires, My best time on the OEM street tires (215/255 RE-070's) a few weeks ago at FCSCC was a 61.0, and that was with a little heat in the tires.  Figure a mid-60 on the next run, with a bit more heat.  I threw on Fresh Hoosier A6's (275x4) and my fastest time was a 55.7, (good enough for Top Pax against some heavy hitters).  Quick math, that's almost 5 seconds.  I encountered the same thing just starting out on my old stock street tires on my old AP1, I was 5-7 seconds off the pace compared to guys on nice Rcompss.

What tires are you on right now and what have you been running?  How far off the pace were you compared to other BS guys?

If you're on a budget, the RT-B Stock class was tailor made for you.  I would be running it were I in your position.  Hell I may run it in the future, I believe in the class (at least regionally - nationally maybe not.)  My advice is buy some star specs and see how you do in the RT Class. If you are competing near the top, it means your driving is there.  If not, you need to improve your driving technique before you could expect to compete against the best in BS.  (And guess what, NER has a great talent pool of national-capable BS drivers and cars - so you couldn't ask for a better barometer to really gauge yourself as a driver.)

That being said, the EVO-X is going to have serious problems against the Racecar-CR in any Solo 2 environment short of a ProSolo.  

But hey, if you want no excuses, man-up and buy some fresh hoosiers and a big rear bar and go for it.  Include all of the time and energy that goes in to setting the car up, alignment, shock tuning, tire pressures, collecting data, learning and processing it and developing a course attack strategy that can consistently allow you to maximize the strengths of the turbo AWD chassis while minimizing it's difficiences.  In any class competing at the top nationally, there is so much more than just hopping in seat of your pants and being fast. It's time, dedication, focus and practice.  If you love and savor the challenge, and you want it bad enough, you'll make it happen.  If not, then I urge you to just be content with the pleasure of flogging a great sports car around (what the majority of local/regional autocrossers are all about - and that's a great part of the sport too - but to each it's own.)

Nick

Edit: PZ says you got some hands and feet Great.  I would love to see a great driver prep a BS Evo-X and see how they do against the s2000.