Car choice in the Moss for the Road tire drivers

[Gus Heck]

I would rather lose against a warrior than win against a cripple.

This is spot on. I've yet to even come close to making the moss, but when I do get there someday (I hope) I definitely will see it like this. (and this is why I really don't mind having the blue CRX running in my class. If I can't beat a FWD car, then either I or my car (or both) don't deserve a trophy in SSM... And even then, there's the issue of SSM supposedly being faster than Panda/SM  ...

One could always go to a trophy shop and order an entire shelf full of trophies... It's your competitors that add meaning.

[Furball]

....This is versus staying in an RT class, which you have no chance of winning the Moss in. ......

Recall if all will, is that RT class was offered here for the casual entrant, not an experienced auto-x'r....

[NERDY]

Recall if all will, is that RT class was offered here for the casual entrant, not an experienced auto-x'r....

I would have to respectfully disagree with that.  While the thought may have been the RT* classes may appeal to casual entrants, I don't believe it is fair at all to say that experienced autoxers should be penalized for running in the RT* classes.

I've run a different car in the Moss before (Rabbit) because my Evo was broken.  I planned on running the CRX last year for the Moss (for fun), but it had it's own problems so Don competed in ES for the Moss.  I don't feel PAX is as skewed at Devens as it is at other sites like NHMS.  If a driver thinks they can be more competitive in another car let him/her drive it.  This competition is about finding the most capable/quickest/consistent driver in the region.  Who are we to tell them what they have to drive to prove it?

-Bryan

#33 RTR (ES)

[madame_toussleau]

About casual drivers - I think the 1st NER thread on casual drivers and street tire classing was dead before the national office announced the roll out of Road Tire classing, but it did draw out the casual driver argument.

When RT was announced and added to the national events, the subject was reintroduced/discussed at NER. I didn't take that discussion to mean it's not for experienced drivers. The only way to plan and prepare to run any class offered in national events is to run in it regionally.

-Barb

[newportroyal]

I've heard and read some random discussions at some larger events, and on other forums, and there definitely are a lot of people saying that RT classes are just big rookie classes locally as well as on the national level.

I can't say I agree with that 100%, although the class is inviting to those that are less experienced and with underprepared cars.  I think its a good place to develop those drivers into more serious and more experienced autocrossers.

With that said, I don't think anyone can really argue that there will always be plenty of top drivers in RT classes (just like every class).  Locally, I think there are plenty of top tier drivers that are either running, or thinking of running RT* simply on the premise of not wanting to pay the exorbitant cost of a set of Hoosier's, and not because they desire a more casual or 'softer competition.'

[blang]

Eddie can speak for himself, but my recollection is the same. Proponents arguing for the class at the NER Solo meeting a few months back used that very argument, e.g. why penalize nOObs who show up with Conti-SpeX in the stock classes e.g. why let them get trounced by folks on R tires?

I guess we're going full circle here.

[newportroyal]

For me, RT is nothing more than a class with an affordable and level playing field.  I'm going to do my best to outdrive the next guy whether I'm on a $700 set of street tires that are fast for 200 runs, or a $1411.39 set of Hoosiers that are going away after 30 runs.  To analogize, the people who drive N/A HS Mini Coopers are just as serious, and just as committed, and quite possibly just as talented as those who drive turbocharged DS Mini Coopers.

Without a doubt, one of the main arguments at the meeting was that there really wasn't anywhere for Novices to go without a huge investment, and I think that is one of the most important qualities of the class, and is one of the biggest reasons that RT is here to stay.  But I don't think it ends there, and I don't think the class should be presumed to be off-limits to more experienced autocrossers.  We want to give those novices a less expensive place to go, not a place with softer competition.  I think the goal is to insulate the new autocrossers from the giant tire budget, not to insulate them from faster drivers. 

For those of us who were ready to get get serious about autocross, or have been serious for many years, we saw RT as class where we'd have real competition with lower costs per run, and nothing less.

I think it's going to take a while for RT classes to become fully accepted throughout the autocross community, especially since I've witnessed many people (not people from NER) descrinbe the class as the bottom of the barrel. 

I don't get offended by any of the comments, conversations, or opinions that I've heard, for the most part I agree with a lot of the points.  But on the other hand I'm sure everyone can understand why some of those that have subscribed might be offended by the stigma that seems to be associated with RT class right now. 

I guess the best way to sum up what I'm getting at, is that in my opinion, RT doesn't necessarily serve the same purpose for everyone that participates in the class.  And the caliber of one's driving is not necessarily based on the caliber of one's tires.




On a personal note, I was hoping for the class to develop into more than it has a bit faster than it has.  I was also hoping for larger RTA classes locally and nationally, but hey, maybe next year.

[madame_toussleau]

I sure would like to see something that says the intent of the RT classes. I only see Bobs post here saying we are supporting RT classes based on the national office support.


http://www.ner.org/forums/index.php/topic,2344.0.html

It's a national class, and  it's the only way to practice for the tour.

Barb

[pj]

The following (from SCCA.com) reads a bit broader than comments above, though it would be hard to argue that it isn't aimed at drawing in "casual competitors":

Howard Duncan, VP of Rally/Solo sees this move as keeping the program in line with the core values of the club.  Duncan points out that “one of the Core Strategies for the ProSolo Series listed in the rule book for years has been to ‘provide participation opportunities for multiple levels of driver experience and commitment (recreational, club, pro)’ and the National Solo Rules have included for over 20 years Core Values that include a ‘variety of competition experiences’ and ‘increased participation and involvement.’” Duncan adds, “The Road Tire category of classes fits perfectly with those concepts by allowing drivers that have participated for years at the local level in road tire type classes all over the country to now become involved with the Tire Rack National Solo program in a competitive way.”[/i]

It will be interesting to see what happens with the class regardless, though we'll have to wait until September to see if the numbers are there.  Any bets on if the class is as successful as STR?

[Aaron-MCS]

If I may throw in my 2 cents.  It seems the success of the class is down the perception of the class.  If it's promoted as a novice+ or somehow less-than-stock class then it will be in this perpetual grey area.  BUT if it's promoted as a true stock racing class (no need to spend $1000+ on annual R-Comps) then it will probably be viewed as a much more competitive, and possibly favored class. 

Who knows, with the new street tires coming down the road next year, the gap between R-Comps and 140 rated streets is closing, and there may be a trend for the bulk of racers to go the RT route.

[pzahornasky]

Who knows, with the new street tires coming down the road next year, the gap between R-Comps and 140 rated streets is closing, and there may be a trend for the bulk of racers to go the RT route.

There is a proposal to raise the rating for the Road Tire and Street Touring classes to 200 for this very reason.

Not that it's going to matter - the next batch of tires will be at 200 and be faster than what is out there now.

[madame_toussleau]

"...allowing drivers that have participated for years at the local level in road tire type classes all over the country to now become involved with the Tire Rack National Solo program in a competitive way." still sounds like they are addressing the requests from the experienced regional people who've been running competitively in street tire classes for years, to have a competitive shot at the national scene.

Beyond that, the article continues talking about stock class decline due to tire cost, and then finishes with this friendly gem, probably meant for those same seasoned index class drivers:

"In short, for all of the people who have for years said that you would be at the national events if not for the need to run R-Comps to be competitive, it's time to put up or shut up!"

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds more like a challenge than an invitation for novices to play here.

-barb-

[NERDY]

Any bets on if the class is as successful as STR?

I got $100 on "No".

-Bryan

[Jenna]

The big, established names in Stock are still on Hoosiers. I have yet to see one in RT.


The point of this thread was to discuss switching cars in the Moss. I'd like to reiterate that it was advised to be unsportsmanlike to switch, especially if you were a class winner.

[GrantR]

It is only unsportsmanlike in certain circumstances that make it fairly obvious it's a dick move. eg, the day turns out rainy, so someone decides to switch last minute to a ST* class car to max out pax advantage, or something like that.

I've driven different cars at Moss events than I won seasons in before. But that was because it's all about having opportunities to drive fun cars.

Basically, if someone can jump in a randomly different car that they are not used to and win the Moss, then bonus points to them! That's showing off some really good driving talent, and would be worthy of winning the event if they can do that.

I vote for allowing anyone to drive anything they want to at Moss events. There is nothing unsportsmanlike about that.