Car choice in the Moss for the Road tire drivers

[Forcednduckshn]

It is only unsportsmanlike in certain circumstances that make it fairly obvious it's a dick move. eg, the day turns out rainy, so someone decides to switch last minute to a ST* class car to max out pax advantage, or something like that.

I've driven different cars at Moss events than I won seasons in before. But that was because it's all about having opportunities to drive fun cars.

Basically, if someone can jump in a randomly different car that they are not used to and win the Moss, then bonus points to them! That's showing off some really good driving talent, and would be worthy of winning the event if they can do that.

I vote for allowing anyone to drive anything they want to at Moss events. There is nothing unsportsmanlike about that.

+1

[pj]

There was also another case previously where the same thing was said about driving a car in an uncontested class for a season and switching back at the Moss.  This is less of an issue now as "top" Moss qualifiers are doing it on PAX.

[batchman]

I realize this is a Moss thread but this is where the real RT discussion sits - so here's a tidbit that seems to point in the direction I originally thought.

Road Tire is the new hot topic, and everyone seems to have an opinion.  As prices continue to rise on R-comp tires, the per-run costs are forcing some to leave the once-popular Stock category.  Many have called for a move away from the addictive but costly rubber, but there is no clear mandate.

Many regional programs employ their own flavor of indexed classing, where cars from a variety of categories compete on index using normal street tires.  To cater to a lower budget and to test the concept of a general move away from R-comps in Stock, a set of supplemental classes has been added to the National Tours and the Solo Nationals.

To my eye, when considering the National level, there are no "casual" classes.

Cheers,
- Jeff

[Gus Heck]

There was also another case previously where the same thing was said about driving a car in an uncontested class for a season and switching back at the Moss.  This is less of an issue now as "top" Moss qualifiers are doing it on PAX.

The spot in the moss could be viewed as incentive for filling out the classes... If one didn't like that, class bumping rules could be used on any class that had only one driver with 5+ races...

Really I don't think it's worth worrying about it either way though. The only case that is a problem is when the number of competitors in the moss is unmanageable. Everything else sorts itself out through competition. The chances that someone who has to run a singlton class to get in will win are vanishingly small, and if they do... well maybe they deserve it after all.

I think the rainy day ST car issue Grant mentioned is a bit of an issue, but all that's required to fix that problem is to have competitors declare their moss car 10 days before the Moss.

Then it's their job not to break it for 10 days. .

[Jenna]

Really I don't think it's worth worrying about it either way though. The only case that is a problem is when the number of competitors in the moss is unmanageable.

As the person who had to do the spreadsheets and separate timing jobs for the Moss, yes, 42 was a bit much.

[Gus Heck]

As the person who had to do the spreadsheets and separate timing jobs for the Moss, yes, 42 was a bit much.

Ok, so (next year) we might consider aggregating all one-member classes and using season pax scores to determine which 1 - 3 of the singletons get to compete in the moss

I realized that my "class bumping rules" idea doesn't work so well because you would need to recalculate the entire season if someone got bumped from a singleton class into a class with 5 full year competitors. So to compensate for the 10 pro drivers, cull out the folks who are the only driver in their class. Not exactly sure how many that culls from the overburdened spreadsheet, but it does at least seem fair and consistent with the concept of the moss as a competition of the top drivers.

Who it hurts:
 1.) folks who would jump into an empty class just to get in the moss despite not being competitive.
 2.) folks who are running in an empty or near empty class because that's the car they have, but are not skilled or not competitively prepared enough to compete based on pax.

Who it helps:
 1.) Timing and scoring.
 2.) Everyone else by shortening the moss competition, and raising the prestige of making it into the moss.

[newportroyal]

I think if it was reorganized that way, there would be next to nobody that would make the Moss except for those that make it based on PAX in one way or another.

I'm all for the opportunities created by, and the classes that are based on PAX, but I personally don't think we should eliminate too much of the old fashioned stuff and put all our eggs in the PAX basket.  

Just my .02

[pj]

Just wondering... Is the point of the Moss competition to determine the top autocrosser in the region or is it to give everyone a lottery chance at having their name engraved on the trophy? 

[NERDY]

Just wondering... Is the point of the Moss competition to determine the top autocrosser in the region or is it to give everyone a lottery chance at having their name engraved on the trophy? 

Disclaimer:  I don't mean to be inflammatory or to be disrespectful to tradition within the region...

I would think the point of the Moss was to find the top autocrosser in the region.  That said, under the current rules the Moss Trophy gets awarded based on some middle ground between the season PAX champion and class winner lottery.

Why do we have a Moss runoff event at all?  If we are going to find the best autocrosser in the region I would think it would just be based on season PAX points.  We have no way of finding the "best driver in the region" objectively anyways.  The only way to really do that is to have a "control" vehicle that everyone would drive and whoever is quickest and most consistent can be named the "best".  Since we're all driving different cars that may or may not have an advantage from one course to another, or in some ambient conditions or another we don't have a real objective way to compare driver performance between classes.  Hell, having a tire warmer may be enough to give one the edge.  One could drive an ES Miata to 99.9% of it's potential on one day, but if the course is a "power course" a Street Mod car driven at 95% of it's potential would crush it in PAX. 

The Moss competition is a fun thing to do in the region and it should find the best driver in the region within a certain margin of error.  We aren't equipped to objectively find the best.  I don't think the Moss is too broken as is.  Sure it's possible to game the system and run an ES Miata in DP uncontested all year to guarantee yourself a spot in the runoff.  I think it's ridiculous to say that a driver must drive in the class he/she qualified in in the Moss.  Again, it's supposed to be about finding the best driver.  Arguably this sport places a lot of emphasis on strategy:  reading/walking the course, car setup, tire choice, and even picking the right car for the class.  Part of what makes a great driver great is not just raw talent, but being well rounded in all of those aspects.

If a competitor can drive an ES Miata in DP all year, qualify for the Moss, then change the PAX back to ES, and out-PAX and run more consistently than the rest of the competition how can we say he/she cheated?  If a competitor drives a DS WRX in RTA all year and then jumps in an SS Corvette and out-PAXes and runs more consistently than the rest of the competition how can we say he/she cheated?  Personally I think that's even MORE impressive a feat.

Cars break. Car owners can't make it to events. Certain over-powered Hondas look much more appealing to drive than a mid-engine Toyota from the '90s.  It's pouring and your kart really doesn't like driving through 4" deep puddles.  There are all kinds of reasons why a Moss competitor can't or doesn't want to drive the car they qualified in that doesn't mean they are searching for a competitive advantage.

This post has gotten way too long.  Moral of the story.  The Moss is fun.  The Moss is NER tradition.  The Moss will not necessarily find the best driver in the region.  We can't objectively determine the best driver in the region due to the huge number of variables that exist before you even consider the driver.

I don't think the Moss is broken unless you try to make the Moss more than it is.

-Bryan

[Leafy]

... Sure it's possible to game the system and run an ES Miata in DP uncontested all year to guarantee yourself a spot in the runoff.  I think it's ridiculous to say that a driver must drive in the class he/she qualified in in the Moss.  Again, it's supposed to be about finding the best driver.  Arguably this sport places a lot of emphasis on strategy:  reading/walking the course, car setup, tire choice, and even picking the right car for the class.  Part of what makes a great driver great is not just raw talent, but being well rounded in all of those aspects.

If a competitor can drive an ES Miata in DP all year, qualify for the Moss, then change the PAX back to ES, and out-PAX and run more consistently than the rest of the competition how can we say he/she cheated?
...

Its not that the person cheated, its that, if they won the moss that way then they had no need to run DP since they would have been able to win ES for the season

[GrantR]

We also need to remember that the Moss is NOT all about PAX or being the fastest. What qualifies the "best" driver in the region? According to the Moss trophy itself it's about being fast AND consistent. And that's what the current Moss format gives us, a blend of being fast, and then trying to back that fast run up with 3 more identical runs. There are drivers who are incredibly fast... but not as consistent as they would like to be. I've heard suggestions to switch the Moss to different formats that end up taking away the consistency portion. Usually these suggestions seem to come from folks who struggle with the consistency portion

I really like the two halves of the Moss event, it's a fascinating challenge to try to replicate a run 3 times in a row. But of course I would say that, because I'm good at it: my first 3 Mosses (2000, 2001, 2003) were in completely PAX uncompetitive situations, yet I finished 3rd in consistency each time. And in my 3 PAX competitive Mosses (2006, 2010, 2011) I've always been about 3-6th or so in consistency.

Maybe the whole car choice for road tire class drivers isn't really as much of a problem as it seems. I won in 2006 in spite of being 2 seconds behind in the PAX portion (rain + Z06 = slooooow). Because everyone in front of me screwed up really badly in the afternoon's consistency portion. Someone can come from behind if they do really well in consistency. But we're using different scoring now than in 2006, so it becomes tricky to get that scoring balance right. And if it rains in the Moss, then the RT* classes are going to be PAX equalized relative to the race tire classes.

[pj]

Disclaimer: the following is my opinion which makes it factual.

If the previous was not humorous to you then please stop reading this post.


The car is a piece of equipment.  The autocrosser ("solo driver") is who is competing.

If it rains, and I throw on Hoosier H2O Wets, I will be driving on a setup I haven't driven all year.  Is that much different than changing a swaybar, or springs, or shocks, or the entire car?  Really, a competitor should be allowed to best equip him(her)self for each event.  To me, that's as much a part of autocross as walking the course.

This leads me to the PAX argument: PAX is a better determiner than subjective classing.  There are far more issues with course dependency within specific classes (DS G35 or 330 vs WRX?).  On top of that, you've got gaps within specific cars within each class (AP1 vs CR).  The list goes on and on with uncompetitive cars far outnumbering the competitive ones in each class.  If you don't have the right car, it sucks, but its part of the sport. 

I'll stop now because the hole I'm digging gets way deeper.

Signed,
-The guy who's car only works on dry fast courses with lots of transitions